you look at say the early origins of investment campaign where a young barack obama as a student was involved, many other young idealists and international humanitarians but it was not seen at the time as a way to actually break the regime. it was seen as first a symbolic step and then got traction. the international program against the apartheid regime was a huge factor. walk us through that. >> that's right. it took a long time to gain motion. it seemed idealistic at the beginning, like many younger obama, i remember taking part myself in the protest on college campuses. and but it gained speed, just because so many people caught onto it. in a sense it was the last really coherent global social protest movement. and of course, it was all rallying around mandela. i can remember very well from those days, free mandela was the great rallying cry as sit-ins and protests were formed on these campuses. so it really in the end had the impact that it was intended to have, not something you can see about most protests. >> indeed. ambassador, the anti-apartheid movement was global and it hel